There is no problem with it here Ducky. I think it a rather funny topic. Run with it.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

if they were all faked ,does that mean that i get my astronaught back??

I dunno what to think of this conspiracy theory. And I don't know what to make of the various pros and cons like fyling flags, wrong shadows and stuff. Two thing I don't understand, though:

1. Why has nobody attempted another moonlanding mission ever since? Can't be all for the money. There's so much prestige to it, that the Soviet Union would have done most everything to get even with the US.

2. (just read today) Now Russia and India seem to plan another moonlanding - an unmanned one. We've had 30 years of technical progress now, so it shouldn't be too hard to get up there and back again, one should think?

But all in all: Maybe they were up there, maybe they weren't. I guess we'll never know. Innocent until found guilty?

My life - my mind - my words - my opinion.

There was a time, a few years ago, I found conspiracy theories funny, however silly. Now I only find them silly. Quite annoying, actually. For more than 30 years now, the NASA has been going on through the same explanations, answering the same old questions, pulverising whatever possible conspiracy, yet there are still people who aren't convinced. Why should the NASA try and convince people who live in order to spread useless doubts?

Why haven't we been up there again ever since, you ask? Simple. Because people find the idea of the NASA faking everything more exciting than the missions themselves! The agency has to survive, and to survive it needs money. If the people don't give a damn about sending more astronauts to the moon, they probably won't bother to do that either. It's basic marketing, however sad that it has to be applied to science as well. Not to mention that there is no need to endanger human lives if a probe can do what is needed just as well.

As for what I think, that's clear. It did happen. Every single piece of evidence conspiracy theorists could come up with was debunked. Does that mean everyone will suddenly start believing it did actually happen? Absolutely not. A moon landing is not as exciting as an international conspiracy vaguely smelling of Cold War!

How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? --Woody Allen

I can only speak for myself, and to me, a moon landing is definitiely very interesting.

As I said (or attempted to say), basically I'm more on the "it happened" side. But still the question remains: Why has nobody - not only Nasa - been up there since? Surely it is not beyond us to repeat what's been achieved 40 years ago? And it can't be much more expensive to send 2 or 3 astro-, cosmo- or whatevernauts than to construct a remotecontrol robot that's doing the job.

Ah, c'mon, half of the fun of this topic is that you can debate endlessly about it without getting anywhere

My life - my mind - my words - my opinion.

Thats right! What I also find interesting is that also the construction plans for Saturn 5 are lost. Why? Until today there is no alternative to reach the moon. And the Shuttles are more expensive than Saturn 5. So why stick with the old Shuttles when you can use a better (and everytime new) Saturn 5?

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

I'm not sure how much a Saturn 5 would be in today's money, but it'd be a hell of a lot more. And don't confuse the cost of a shuttle with the cost to launch a shuttle. The complex nature of the launch vehicles makes it an expensive proposition. The Saturn 5 (V for those anal enthusiasts), though VERY large and very complex, was what it was because it also had to carry a lot of fuel. Still in today's dollars...it would be hard to justify. But lost plans? So what? Today we have engineers just as good as then...and computers that are fed and spit out info on punch cards. I think a vehicle capable of reaching the moon and returning man safely to the ground is still possible from a technological standpoint.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

Saturn 5 is cheaper when it comes to total costs. There is only very few left over after a mission is finished but there are no caring costs like for the shuttles. And despite of the additional costs for upgrades the shuttles are getting older and older. A Saturn 5 is totally lost after a mission so new upgrades can simply be used within the next Saturn 5. There are no additional costs for that.

So if the Saturn 5 is the better choice: Why are these plans lost? To hide that they could only fly into near earth orbits? Von Braun originally planned a bigger rocket to do the moon travels but it seems that they weren't really necessary because they have never been built.

The soviets could easily have been proving the Apollo program right or wrong: They had several landers and 2 vehicles on mood after Apollo program was terminated. Why didn't they drive one of their vehicles to a landing site and take some pictures? They would have been the only independ source of evidences.

Back to the rockets: Of course (or better: hopefully) the NASA should be able to construct a better and newer version of a rocket for a moon launch today. But why is it that next moon landing will not take place before 2020? Thats more preparation time than they needed in the 1960s where everything was new and much had to be totally newly invented. Today we do already have these technologies and additionally we have experiences of the former landings. So there is not that much research necessary.

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

Bigger rocket? Have you seen the Saturn V up close? Even from a long distance...it's flippin huge! And...the power of a rocket engine determines the size needed for a particular job...not the size. And the 5 main engines on the Saturn V...look it up.

But here's the proof all for this topic... hehe
PROOF

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

The video is good! The thing is that they originaly expected that even Saturn 5 would not have the power to get to the moon and back. But then they obviously changed their minds...

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

- it had to have happened - the Russians would have very quickly exposed it as a fake, and they would have had top science to prove this.

- it could never have stayed a secret - some one would have blown th whistle who also had absolute proof

you're never too old to take over the world - TheMule

oh for the wings of any bird, other than a battery hen - Hawkwind

Vote TheMule, you know it makes sense - TheMule

Watch out, there's a TheMule about - police poster circa 1970s

rubberduck wrote:

The video is good! The thing is that they originaly expected that even Saturn 5 would not have the power to get to the moon and back. But then they obviously changed their minds...

But what you are forgetting Ducky...is the covert application of giant magnets used to pull the moon close enough for it to get there. Simple.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

Hey, I'm surprised that no one has brought up the conspiracy theory that I have heard...
Mine is alot more fun..

So listen up ....
The government is trying to hide that they discovered signs of life while on the moon...
and then the best..
the astronauts have all suffered a block...memories removed or lost...over major portions of the moonwalk.
And, of course, all of this has much to do with them dragging their heels about a return voyage.

The best way to cheer yourself up...is to cheer somebody else up..
MT

If the plans are lost, how do you know that they are less expensive?

The problem with the space program today is that there is nothing pushing us to do this. If Chinawere to announce that they were goign to put a base on the moon, we'd suddenly get a whole bunch more interested in getting there quick.

-Bruce

"Faith is Action, Based upon Belief, Sustained by Confidence in God's Word and His promise to perform it" ---Dr. Gene Scott

Well, the bills are still existing. So if you count in the inflation of money you can compare the costs for a shuttle mission and for an apollo mission. And: while shuttles can only carry around 25 to into near-earth-orbit the Saturn 5 could carry 130 to.

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

...The moon.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

Why don't they go there anymore? Probably lack of spas, tourist attractions, McDoughs,... should be nice to get an ATM there, though question is: first ATM, or first a fast food joint? What currency? And if McD goes there, it first has to know the GDP/capita to calculate their prices. I think also a sandboard resort could be a great trigger. Maybe a camel safari.

Daar is de lente, daar is de zon
bijna, maar ik denk dat ze weldra zal komen.
De fallus impudicus staat al in bloei
En de blaadjes krijgen bomen.
M'n vrouw en m'n kat zijn allebei krols
en de klokken vertrekken naar Rome

Most of the weight was the fuel. Further, nothing is reusable on the Saturn rockets. Only the external fuel tank on the shuttle isn't reusable, so your math won't hold up over time.

"Faith is Action, Based upon Belief, Sustained by Confidence in God's Word and His promise to perform it" ---Dr. Gene Scott

I was talking about payload possibilities, not the total weight. And the fact that (nearly) nothing is left of a Saturn 5 after a finished mission is pretty much balanced by the repair and update works at the shuttles after each mission.

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

Based on what?

Let's see your accounting.

"Faith is Action, Based upon Belief, Sustained by Confidence in God's Word and His promise to perform it" ---Dr. Gene Scott

I know that wiki is not so much liked anymore, but you can also follow the external links. There you'll find this info.

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

Ducky...what you aren't taking into account is their missions. The Saturn V was meant to take a tiny capsule to the moon and back. And the Shuttle is meant to carry large payloads into the earth's orbit. You really can't compare them at all. Still your numbers aren't working.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

Shifty, please read this real slow and take notes if necessary (I write it slow too).

Okay, here we go: A shuttle can carry 25 tons into a near Earth Orbit. A Saturn 5 could carry 130 tons THE SAME DISTANCE. This is important because as you said right: The Saturn 5 flew to the moon and back while a shuttle wouldn't be able to do it (without a refueling in Orbit).

So to come back to topic: In original films of the first moon landing Armstrongs famous remark about steps for him and menkind is missing. Later you could see a COKE BOTTLE rolling through the TV image!

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

You are still confused Ducky. The Shuttle can get a PAYLOAD that big into orbit. Most of the mass of the Saturn V was fuel or discarded quickly. The payload per mission can not touch the shuttle. Again this is irrelevant as they have different missions. And stop believing that weight is payload.

Coke bottle? hehe Right.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

A Saturn 5 what? Saturn 5 describes the entire multiple booster section, which section are you talking about?

Yeah, right. Saw it live, did you? No, of course you didn't, you aren't old enough. Makes it hard to believe you without solid reliable evidence. Lots and lots of hoaxed film clips out there.

Further reading available:

http://www.apolloarchive.com/

"Faith is Action, Based upon Belief, Sustained by Confidence in God's Word and His promise to perform it" ---Dr. Gene Scott

Several people who had seen the first landing live in tv told me that they couldn't hear Armstrong speaking his sentence. He started with descriptions of the moon surface as he came out of the LM.

The bottle thing is something I found on a "moon hoax" site...

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

I heard it just fine, noise crashes and all.

Thought so.

"Faith is Action, Based upon Belief, Sustained by Confidence in God's Word and His promise to perform it" ---Dr. Gene Scott

Okay so my boyfriend is a member of the "IT NEVER HAPPENED!" group, and when I ask him why his answers are always very stern but non-sensical...he doesn't really have any answers just denial (but then he believes in aliens! WHAT!) lol..anywayz, my standing is this...I don't claim to know diddly squat about space and space travel, but I don't see why our government and NASA would go so far as to convince and pay off all the astronauts and workers, (everyone involved in any and every space program) just to convince the people of the world that they took a stroll on the moon. Why go through all of that when it's just a lie?

Money? okay well if money was their motive it didn't get them very far, cuz look at them now! I personally think that we haven't gone back to the moon because of lack of support and skeptisism. I also believe that the reason they went often in the 70's is because it was a new discovery, so much to learn...and when this country learns and discovers something new like that, they analize and dissect it so intensely and quickly that we lose our momentum and people are looking for the next thing, or trying to bag it because we want to question everything! I don't know if that makes complete sense? It's all mush in my mind but it just makes less sense that they would make it all up.

If it DIDN'T happen then that means the basis of our education in science and space is tainted and then we're left to question if any of it is true? Because supposedly our trip to moon has opened up so many windows and doors of discovery to many other places in our universe.

That US government CAN and DOES lie about their involvement in certain happenings in history is a proven thing (Pearl Harbor, KAL 007, PA 103).

And the money has been paid anyways. It didn't matter if the NASA would have made it to the moon. The development and the construction of all the facilities and rockets caused a big economic boom. And that is what the government paid for, not for several hundret photos.

You might be right with your last point: To be able to fly to the moon many new things had to be developed. Some people think that if NASA would still get as much money as during the Apollo program, flights to Jupiter and farer would be reality today.

"Vor allem bewahrt Euch stets die Fähigkeit, jede Ungerechtigkeit, die irgendwo auf der Welt begangen wird, aufs Tiefste zu empfinden. " Che Guevara

Yeah...I get what you're saying Trust me...I am NOT backing up the United States Government for being clean and fair! HA!!! As for money...God only knows with this country...I'm suprised the governemt can afford a bagel! You just never know what to believe