Dutch people in general arent that patriottic I think.

That's really an interesting topic. There are a lot of countries where the people have an appropriate degree of patriotism, and I think it is good to identify with your nationality, but there are also countries in which people go to far. I won't mention specific countries now, cause I don't want to start a riot
In Germany, where I come from, people have become very careful in showing their national pride due to our history.
During the Soccer World Cup in 2006, media praised the population for finally showing some pride and "daring" to present our flag again!
In my opinion, we cannot be careful enough, cause we shall not allow history to recur!!!

I'm not sure we are allowed to talk about it in England in case we offend some one..

While patriotism in Germany has - ever since - been an exceptional thing with such a delicate intricacy to it, I have a very firm belief concerning patriotism. I, myself, being a born Canadian but raised for the great majority of my life in Germany, would like to avail myself of the words of a very exceptional german philosopher called Arthur Schopenhauer:

"The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it betrays in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor beggar who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own."

~ Arthur Schopenhauer, "Aphorisms on the Wisdom of Life", Chapter II

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labour. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~ Albert Einstein

Einstein correctly said that “Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.” Although there’s a slight difference between patriotism and nationalism, I consider this quote to fit for both phenomena.
The Schopenhauer quote of the poster before me also expressed it quite well.

No sane individual human being should need to be proud for something it hasn’t done anything for, for being born in a certain country with probably as many suckers as in every other country in the world. Not to mention that a patriot who has to fill his personal emptiness with national pride is prone to overlook the injustices of his home country.

Further, nobody is fighting for me because I commanded them or considered it being necessary nor does anyone else anything special for me in this country. I’m at best thankful for being born in a country which is relatively civilized, but there I have to thank God for. Patriotism in a healthy form is at best bearable in sports, just for fun.

I live a good life, very easy here. No need to hide behind patriotism. Though I like patriotic people, very easy to tease, and they buy the tease, always. And forget about soldiers and freedom. All they do, is to make your country poorer. Just look south of the border

Patriotism in Bermuda?? HA!! What's that??? LMAO Most ppl here would agree that we dont have a patriotic bone in our bodies! And I have to admit I am one of those ppl! I have no patriotism for my country, I couldnt care less...I'm way more patriotic to my ancestory countries (Portugal and Puerto Rico and to my bf's country, Russia) than I am to my own

"I dont need the internet..I already know everything."

You're kidding right? Ed

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WITHOUT PRAYER IS LIKE COMPUTER HARDWARE WITHOUT THE SOFTWARE!!!!!

Oh ain't this a hoot!? To those pushing this shopenhauer dude.... Aren't you the one that just sang the praises of the dictator Chavez? A man pushing for socialism. "For it betrays in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud" Kind of at odds isn't it? Let me answer...YES! You don't want the individual. Individualism is a curse to such as you and Chavez. Individual effort and accomplishment is to be punished. And it goes...you get less of the act that is punished.

And Flomany...you leave out that many...MANY have done for their countries. How do they figure in?

As said...there is a slight difference in nationalism and Patriotism. But why quibble? When there is something to be proud of...be proud of it. It IS an individual this right? When there is something to be critical of...be critical. What is obvious...most take one side or the other, to the exclusion of the obvious on the other side. I am more than proud of my country. It's past, and present. Proud of those that came before me to make it what it is. Proud of my own contributions to it

***************
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

ShiftyI am in total agreement with you. I don't know who this Shnauser guy is, and I don't know or care what is ethically correct, or politcally correct. I just know I love Canada and what we have and I am also proud of our neighbours in the United States. Sure we tease each other but I know there is a lot of respect between the countries, never mind the politicians. I am proud of our countries and I get very sad when I see the young men and women of our troops being so courageous to give up their lives for us. They are to me, just babies, They had their whole life ahead of them, yet they chose to fight for their countries. Please take care before you belittle our feelings for our countries.

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WITHOUT PRAYER IS LIKE COMPUTER HARDWARE WITHOUT THE SOFTWARE!!!!!

Tease? How can the 51st state tease the first 50?

***************
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

Shifty, just for a laugh(or anybody else, the more the merrier) This is how we make fun of ourselves, the first one is Canadian, Quebec is part of Canada but rumor has it that they think they are a country of their own http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncdhLGjFTE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXtVrDPhHBg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP72DIIXhbw&feature=related

There you have it from both sides, humorous.

Better not let Hasta, find this site!!

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WITHOUT PRAYER IS LIKE COMPUTER HARDWARE WITHOUT THE SOFTWARE!!!!!

This is the same Schopenhauer who claimed that "woman is by nature meant to obey". But don't let that get in the way of a good quote to back up a view.
Every nation should be patriotic..its just knowing when to draw the line.

That the silly stuff he considers proof of stuff. hehe

***************
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

Maybe hearing it from a compatriot makes it easier to understand for you.

"We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens. We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone, who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon that of some industrial magnate. Yet our hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that she will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations. Such is the logic of patriotism."

~Emma Goldman

As a pacifist, I am naturally opposed to patriotism.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labour. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~ Albert Einstein

I’m not proud but thankful for those people in history who had a great impact on me, it doesn’t matter that much in which country they were born. It’s great to have people in your country who had a tremendously positive influence on other people with their talents, their philosophy. But how useful is it if a German is proud of Cusanus, Leibniz, Schopenheuer, Goethe, Schiller or Mann without knowing much of them or without being personally influenced by them? A big majority of e.g. US-Americans is proud of the history of their country and the people who had a great and positive impact on it and enriched it, but in fact many of them personally haven’t learnt much from these people or don’t even know them. They’re patriotic for the sake of being patriotic. Same for other countries. I’m as much (if not more) moved by the Star-Spangled Banner, the Hatikvah or Oh Canada as I’m of the German anthem. For every of these countries have had people that had a more or less great impact on me, the individual human being. There are people in foreign countries who are much closer to me than any German I’ve ever met except for my family. And of today’s Germany which means the majority of people, the society, which creates it, I could never be proud of because it’s far away from any ideals I consider being valuable.

@EdIsHere:

Oh yes, and with this particular view of him (which actually is far more complex than you could ever bother to imagine) everything of his entire philosophy and genius is nothing worth anymore, eh?
But it easily is if one doesn’t bother to face up to the entire works of such a complex character, but rather likes to give pseudo-witty statements without the aim to encourage any fruitful debate.
Further I don’t have a clue how a “nation” can be patriotic. I guess as much as a stadium can be loud?

Sad but true. Only reminds me of another quotation equally full of truth.

"Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. [...] Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others."

~Emma Goldman

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labour. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~ Albert Einstein

I am sure that we can all find quotes from different people who support our beliefs, and maybe I am showing my ignorance, but I will quote what I know(the bible) and what is in my heart. I must apologize for the last utube posting as it is totally inappropriate to show something like this, and I should have taken the time to look for something more suitable.

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WITHOUT PRAYER IS LIKE COMPUTER HARDWARE WITHOUT THE SOFTWARE!!!!!

Oh...My bad. The people YOU read have all the answers. It sounds mysteriously like bs. Before moving into it...here's a little tip. Stop quoting EVERYTHING directly. At least give people the impression you are able to have a thought of your own. WHOA!!! Flashback to the bar scene in Good Will Hunting. How you like them apples?

This is a sick, demented woman. Spasms of joy? Hanging...she is freakin delusional. Like some around here...having to make up reason to dislike something. Truth? Nah. Now...should it make one proud to be able to help others when able? To advance almost every industry? Of course I am speaking for my country....but name another country that has EVER given so much to the world. Used it's might for more good around the world. All things to be proud of. As to pacifists...fine. One can be against ANY violence...and be patriotic. Gotta ask...is their anything you are actually FOR?

***************
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and them misapplying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx

Latches onto the last means of being proud"..Hmmmm.hasta ataturk and les boys?
I am unashamedly patriotic,i have periodically been putting my life on the line for my people my religion and my country and i am extraordinarily proud of our national achievements,they are many and varied..I am most proud of the safehaven we have provided for our people from all over the world.
On the otherhand,we have always been ruled by coalition,and we are not by nature patriotic to the govt but to the nation and its flag....

I'd forgotten how charming you can be.
I don't think you should base a opinion on the ramblings of a man who has since past, but like i said it's your view.

We only have a small army here in belgium, and we're not all that patriottic about it.Though I think in general, they do good work (dismining (Africa and Cambodia, Lebanon), training and material help to other armies (Africa)...)

Daar is de lente, daar is de zon
bijna, maar ik denk dat ze weldra zal komen.
De fallus impudicus staat al in bloei
En de blaadjes krijgen bomen.
M'n vrouw en m'n kat zijn allebei krols
en de klokken vertrekken naar Rome

Ahh such extreme points of view..
Must everything be so black and white?
There is nothing at all wrong with loving your country.
In fact, if you do not have any love for your own country how in the world would you ever hope to make any changes for the better.?
That's exactly how positive change does evolve...from those that truly love the principles of what they dream their country could in actuality become.
Patriotism is not all about blind, idiotic, foolish, total obedience.
Those people are no more helpful to a countries progression than ..ah...the other side of the coin.
Those that offer it none of their loyalty...and then wonder why it offers them nothing back.

The best way to cheer yourself up...is to cheer somebody else up..
MT

Why should I bother to explain my views in more complicated ways when a quote expresses them very well? For YOU? You got to be kidding. Why should I take the effort to explain something to YOU?
Like there would be any point. It's not like you're open to explanations or different views anyways. To you, everything else is bs.

What are you talking about now, anyways? Advancing industry? For what? By what? For the occupied countrys by America? America has given shit to all those countries it invaded. American warfare always has been full of lies by the government and always has been made by the same "we want peace"-rhetorics that have ended in bloody massacres.
Your probably very beloved Rumsfeld has talked about all those BRILLIANT weapons that are so exact and precise in their ways of killing, yet how come 90% of the iraqi victims of those brilliant killing methods are civilians? Saddam Hussein was a dictator imposed by the Americans. In the first gulf war the Americans gave a shit about the people and equally distributed their brilliant weapons to Iran and Iraq for a heckload of money. What did the media tell the American people? It's war, be patriotic! Don't ask questions that might criticize the war because THAT is UNpatriotic! Patriotism has been and will be forever the vile disguise for war and violence. Of course a little patriotism doesn't hurt. A little christianism doesn't hurt either. But regarding the FACT that the mere existence of patriotism and christianism have cause more pain than gain (pun intended) I believe in my right to be opposed to it in every way.

Since you are such a sincere patriot I might suggest to you a very good book by Norman Solomon called "War made easy". I am sure as a true American you would be able to read it and build your own opinion. Saldy I guess you won't. But I would recommend you take a look at it. Just in case I AM right.
Oh yes, and to answer your question. Yes there is something I am for.
REAL peace. Social dutys that are actually fulfilled by the state. Trade unions. Environmental protection.
Another good book writer I could recommend is Rosa Luxemburg who said:
"Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters."

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labour. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~ Albert Einstein

A quote for Tiska,
Anonymous..."For those who fight for it, freedom has a special flavor the protected will never know."

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WITHOUT PRAYER IS LIKE COMPUTER HARDWARE WITHOUT THE SOFTWARE!!!!!

@EdIsHere:

I don’t base my opinion on anyone else, I only use quotes to support my opinion. I think this is totally fine since there have lived a few people before us who could express a truth in a very witty and trenchant way. Seems that your arrogance forbids you to find anything only slightly intelligent that you haven’t created or expressed yourself.
You may have forgotten how charming I can be, I haven’t forgotten how charming you can be.

The problem is, that you are not fighting for freedom down in Iraq. That is the big misunderstanding here.
I do not blame you though. Which government would allow the media to send out to their people reporting that their government is killing innocent people for economical reasons? Informing yourself by sources all over the world is quite laborious and it IS so much comfortable to believe the evening news.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labour. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~ Albert Einstein

Small problem with your weak argument...the grand majority of Iraqis are more free now than they have ever been. And, apparently, your lack of knowledge on the freedom of the press on this side of the pond fairly well shows that you certainly do not get your news from many sources. But let's humor you. What is the fighting in Iraq for. Something with something verifiable and not the ravings of lunatics.

Do you find it more comfortable to let other people do all your thinking? Surely there is a quote in a book you read to cover just this sort of argument.

You do prove the quote quite accurate however. You will never understand was people, just like those you hate, GIVE to you.

THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WITHOUT PRAYER IS LIKE COMPUTER HARDWARE WITHOUT THE SOFTWARE!!!!!

Wow, now you're trying to make me a hate-monger. Is that all you got?

The Iraqis are more free than ever? Probably because they're dead. Did you know that there was a good education and health system in Iraq before it was bombed? Did you know that over 4.2 million Iraqis, more than 16% of the Iraqi population, have lost their homes and become refugees since 2003? Did you know that an estimated 331 school teachers were slain in the first four months of 2006, according to Human Rights Watch, and at least 2,000 Iraqi doctors have been killed and 250 kidnapped since the 2003 U.S. invasion?

Did you know the Iraqs nation's health has deteriorated to a level not seen since the 1950s? According to Joseph Chamie, former director of the U.N. Population Division and an Iraq specialist they're now looking "more and more like a country in sub-Saharan Africa." to make it a little more pittoresque for you.

Total deaths (civilian and non-civilian) include all additional deaths due to increased lawlessness, degraded infrastructure, poorer healthcare, etc.. The survey estimated 654,965 excess deaths related to the war.

In Iraq's hospitals, children are dying because of shockingly poor sanitation and a shortage of medical equipment. In Baghdad's premier children's hospital, Al-Iskan, sewage drips from the roof of the premature babies' ward, leaking from waste pipes above.

Ten months after the fall of Saddam, the invasion that was supposed to have transformed the lives of ordinary Iraqis has done little for the children in Al-Iskan Hospital.

Of the billions of dollars the US is spending in Iraq, little seems to have found its way to the people there. In a country that sits on top of the second largest proven oil reserves in the world, children are dying in hospital beds because of a shortage of such basic equipment as oxygen cylinders.

Now... guess why?

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labour. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~ Albert Einstein

There goes your topic Leaa LOL!!!

"I dont need the internet..I already know everything."